Curse

pagansaint · Dec 01, 2005, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Personal attacks? LoL. Atleast go after my grasp of strategy...

I will stand by my arguement that Hex removal and Condition removal BOTH on a warrior are detrimental to your team. At most, MOST you can take Condition Removal, and Plague Touch is the be all end all for that you are correct. But having a monk take Condition and Hex removal does NOT hurt the team. Boon Prot monk anyone? You know, the most efficient/popular monk in TA?

And keep after me please, especially when you say you use a 9s duration 30s recharge IAS to build adrenaline for your Hammer warrior. Please. Come after me saying you use inefficient and/or situational use skills for your main attack support skills. Good Job.

Back to the OP and Topic...

Yeah, Tactics is not a very good line for a R/W unless you are running a Victory is Mine! Trapper build.
But going with high Expertise to drop those energy attacks/traps down to spammable levels and a good bit of Wilderness to keep Serpent's running as much as possible to really spam out the energy attacks works well.

Also, as has been mentioned a couple times Tiger's Fury is the best IAS for a R/W due to the use of runes and Expertise.

Another R/W Melee that I've found works very well in Tombs...

Serpent's Quickness
Distracting Blow
Savage Slash
Spike Trap
Pure Strike
Seeking Blade/Apply Poison/Hamstring
Troll Unguent/Antidote Signet
Res Signet/Dryder's Defense/Antidote Signet

VGJustice · Dec 02, 2005, 12:32 AM // 00:32

pagansaint, Warskull, thank you for your continued support and comments. Yours are especially helpful. I've got a better grasp on what a melee R/W's role is in PvP, so I'm making better judgements about my skill selections. Here's what I'm using now (roughly, because I'm not online right now, and I've only got a few minutes):

Attributes:
Swordsmanship: 12
Expertice: 9 + 3 + 1
Wilderness Survival: 7 + 1 (I think, don't quote me)

Skills:
Hundred Blades {E}
Pure Strike
Seeking Blade
Wild Blow
Serpent's Quickness
Whirling Defense
Troll Unguent
Res Signet

I basicly took your build, pagansaint, and found out that I didn't like the way Power Attack was working, so I swapped it with Wild Blow. Very effective, but my damage became more even, I'll have to add up the damage and figure out a dps or dpm value. That, and I really need to stop laughing when I see 2 Wa/Mo's casting mending in unison in CA (funniest thing ever). Hamstring would probably be a good idea on this build, so I'm gonna find a way to work it in with Savage Slash, which I'm fairly proficient with.

On a side note, my original build gave me an idea for a W/R build, using Swords, Tactics and a little bit of Strength. I'll play around with it a bit and post it up in a different topic.

Vindexus · Dec 02, 2005, 01:07 AM // 01:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by VGJustice

Ok, before the flames begin about a Ranger with a sword, let me assure you that A) I'm not high (and I have been accused of this in game), and B) I'm not using any status ailments. Ok, now that that's out of the way, here's my still experimental 3 Att melee ranger with a sword:

Attributes:
Swordsmanship: 12
Tactics: 10
Expertice: 5 + 1 + 3

Skills:
Whirling Defense
Disiplined Stance
Dodge
Final Thrust
Thrill of Victory
Hundred Blades {E}
Savage Slash
Res Sig

Standard weaknesses for a melee type characters apply, you should fear blindness and Shield of Judgement, which is a give, and the Ranger is in no way as tough as a Warrior, so you don't want to get a bunch of guys wailing on you, and a R/W is (or should be) a prime target for Wild Blow. On the other hand, while I was using this build in CA and in TA I noticed something pretty odd: I was getting ignored as I charged in. Which was incredibly funny as I plinked with Hundred Blades then slapped them hard with Thrill of Victory. Usually after that, I had their attention. The build is capable of some happily suprising damage, even to the ultra tough Warriors with Sup Abs and Knights (I could spike at about 60-80 damage on the classic Wa/Mo's I encountered). Once I get their health down below half is when this build really shines, because the combined attacks of Thrill and Final is devistating.

Ok.... anyone see any points that could be improved upon?

You have no snares in there at all, so people can just kite you all day long.

Man With No Name · Dec 02, 2005, 01:14 AM // 01:14

I'll be brief...

Where's the damage part..??

The damage is minimal

I could easily mitigate the laughable amount of damage it does, using the Boon Prot -- without even kiting, using only a Signet of Devotion. Hell, why don't we add ANOTHER defensive stance for a total of 4 -- that alone is just seriously wrong.

You can't counter enchantments, stances or even people running away -- these are all basic things that Melee types face and should have covered. Instead you've brought 3 defensive stances of your own :S

I'd completely scrap the first one -- even the pre-made paladin hits harder with few adjustments. The second build is better but it's still not a threat.

I don't see what R/W offers compared to a W/R for melee. You automatically hit softer since your missing out on Strength and a higher Weapon Mastery than 12.

The only benefits..??

Cheaper costs on energy skills ( which can be made up for with a Zealous Weapon anyways... ) and higher AL vs. Elemental.

Yukito Kunisaki · Dec 02, 2005, 01:50 AM // 01:50

Mentioning obvious counters is a given since the OP didn't mention them himself... dur dur...

Even regular warriors will have trouble dealing with hex after condition piled on top of them, so let's just let the monk worry about that k? ^_^

As far as I can see, the idea is ok... Using Expertise to pump out warrior energy attacks is probably a good way to go...

My idea would be this however... [for all the smartass counter remarks]

12 Swordsmanship
9+3+1 Expertise
Rest to Wilderness Survival +1

Seeking Blade
Savage Slash
Hamstring
Final Thrust
Frenzy
Storm Chaser
Melandru's Resilience {E}
Antidote / Res Sig

Except for Final Thrust, all of your sword attacks are pretty much energy. The Antidote sig may counter your Mel's Resilience, but the idea for Mel's is to stay alive under nasty hex conditions. Using Antidote Sig saves you from condition based degen if your monk is not there or asleep...

Not efficient, but then again, R/W or W/R were never meant to be efficient...

VGJustice · Dec 02, 2005, 06:10 AM // 06:10

Ok, after a lot of work and some Deep Thought (tm), I've come to better understand the role of the R/W in PvP. I'm not there for damage, but rather to aid the other Warriors. Make their life a bit easier. So, I've basicly scrapped my original build and I've gone in a very different direction: Warrior Aid.

Attributes:
Swordsmanship: 12
Expertise: 9 + 3 + 1
Wilderness Survival: 9 + 1

Skills:
Savage Slash
Hamstring
Seeking Blade
Throw Dirt
Wild Blow
Lightning Reflexes
Melandru's Resilience {E}
Res Sig

Ok, new plan! Become a pest to everyone! Basic idea is to spam Seeking Blade, Wild Blow, and Lightning Reflexes as fast as they pop up. This *should* keep any stance down, and it counter's evasion fairly well (had a couple of Ele's using Ward, and I managed to take them down even through that). I save Hamstring and Savage Slash for fleeing casters (as we all know, they must eventually stop to cast a spell :P ). If I get the chance, I can use Throw Dirt to at least slow down any melee types that get on my case, or sling it in passing so they don't give my casters too much trouble (barring a Monk with Mend who's on the ball). At suggestion from Yukito, I tried Melandru's Resilience, and I really like how much it helped. I was the eventual target of a gang condition/hex spamming, and I was still gaining health, so I'd say that was a success. Basicly, I just make a soft target a little softer or easier to hit so that the real damage dealers can actually deal damage. I'm pretty happy with it now. Thanks a lot for all the help. But, please, keep the suggestions rolling.

Yukito Kunisaki · Dec 02, 2005, 06:55 AM // 06:55

Glad to see my idea helped.

Don't forget to tell your teammates to leave the hexes on ya... More energy for more skill spam...

VGJustice · Dec 02, 2005, 08:32 AM // 08:32

@ Yukito: lol, good call :P

I tested this for a few hours tonight in CA, and I managed to farm some good faction for my trouble. Seems to work pretty well. Blindness is just flat out doom for this build, but not much else it. Spirit Shackles doesn't do much if you use Resilience. Spamming Wild Blow and Seeking Blade cuts through not only stance users, but also Warders. If I put Hamstring on a Caster, and I've got a Warrior beside me, that's a dead caster.

A good trick (to me at least) is to use a stance type set of weapons. If nothing is going on, you can just slap on Resiliance for no good reason and boost your attack for a bit. And, I think a Crippling Sword Hilt seems to work. You just have to be ready with that Savage Slash.

C2K · Dec 02, 2005, 09:59 AM // 09:59

How often are you successful with Seeking Blade? If your causing alot of bleeding, perhaps try to fit Gash in there. Deep Wound is very nice to have in PvP.

BerryRacer · Dec 02, 2005, 10:21 AM // 10:21

Hi just read over your build and as with all ranger/warrior builds...i liked it

The build my ranger usually uses, when mele fighting is quite similar, though its heavy conditions .. however i use an axe, i use, to use a sword with similar skills but the axe seemed a better fit with me. This was due to the fact that i did not have to spend my elite on hundred blades to spread posion round, reason been cyclone axe

For Pvp i use
11 axe
9 tactics
10 wild
9 expertise

Cyclone axe
Swift Chop
Desperate Blow
Apply Posion
Balance stance
Res sig
Victory is Mine{E}
Watch yourself

With Watch yourself being the only adren skill i can always keep it running, therefore have 90 armor vs physical (Very close to what a normal warriors is with all his reduction added) 120 armor vs all elemental and another 15 if you choose drake, studded or fur's vs a certain type. As you can see i mainly rely on victory, too well, start a' new at full health and energy because with balance stance going i can use desperate blow every 7 seconds which is often a new condition and the time the conditions under desperate blow last is...well quite long , let alone what Cyclone and apply poison get up too. So really in short you nearly make up for the normal damage through spamming the energy skills which you would get from a higher attribute and strength when fighting another warrior and maybe do more vs a "squishy" Also you can change things around by throwing throw dirt in there, for the extra area condition and such.

Also i use this build to solo afew places in the pve side of things, like sand worms for shells. And perdition rock for well...stuff. I also do, and sometimes with alittle difficulty Racthoh's great Fow Spider run(found here http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=77852 thanks very much Racthoh...(limit on smiley's ) With The spider run i replace balance stance with shields up and swift chop for storm chaser although sometimes i have trouble against their condition counter and you often have to use the wall's for cover.
( and with all solo runs switch trolls for res sig )

So yes keep the sons and daughter's of Aragorn coming

BBoy_Manchild · Dec 02, 2005, 10:27 AM // 10:27

see now this person knows how to make a melee R/W
ill post up my melee R/W when i get a few decent SS

Zazoo · Dec 02, 2005, 11:08 AM // 11:08

I play a R/W that uses a hammer, and I have a to agree that he is a support character.

He does not do as much damage as a warrior, but makes targets that much easier to kill, distract etc
And No a warrior cannot do what a R/W does.

Garumn · Dec 02, 2005, 12:00 PM // 12:00

PPl just wait for the Assasin class, the warrior is anyway better with melle weapons...

Yukito Kunisaki · Dec 02, 2005, 12:58 PM // 12:58

People create R/W to play toward the secondary at times. I don't think playing toward the secondary is efficient despite what others say due to one obvious explanation...

Runes...

They are the reason why playing toward beefing your primary makes playing toward the primary 10x better...

But, if rangers want to go melee, I say no problem... ^_^

But one thing is for damn certain, no R/W can beat my W/N in a point blank fight... I've tested it and the armor level and strength factor is just too powerful for a melee ranger to deal with... Warriors always hit harder than rangers in melee...

But, if the ranger is doing something other than maximum damage, I'm not gonna complain. At least some rangers are honest enough to accept the fact that they can't do warrior style damage...

judge1121 · Dec 02, 2005, 01:26 PM // 13:26

rangers arent suppose to do warrior like dmg but their speed is suppose to make them either equal to the dmg or more. Rangers usually take hammer for the reason that is a 2 handed weapon meaning they dont need a shield. with them, the hammer is weaker than warriors using them, since they cant raise it to 16 and dont have strength.
Ranger got expertise to make warrior skills using energy become easily spamable. also rangers have Tigers fury wich doesnt have any hurtful draw backs like frenzy, and is much more spamable compared to berserker stance. any real draw back from it is not being able to use some skills. this boost in speed then helps the ranger speed up in attks. with a combination of these, a ranger can quickly spam "OK" dmg to the person they fight, by both charging up adrenaline faster and by using skills the require energy more often.

BerryRacer · Dec 02, 2005, 01:49 PM // 13:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

But, if the ranger is doing something other than maximum damage, I'm not gonna complain. At least some rangers are honest enough to accept the fact that they can't do warrior style damage...

Yeah sorry i think that you are directing that at what i said

See i don't think i wrote what i mean't clearly, see when i said up to warrior's amount in damage i was meaning without the warrior using a skill, seen i'm spamming mine as much as i'm hitting really, so yeah i was putting it next to a warrior not using skills to boast his attacks, and yes i did not make that very clear..hehe if you understand that

So yeah sorry for the confusion.
(P.s i know your W/n could easily win, i have looked at some of your good builds and ...this build i said before would lose to plauge touch alone

)

judge1121 · Dec 02, 2005, 04:49 PM // 16:49

berry ur build also requires the ppl to have a condition on them. i aslo see u wasting ur time trying to put apply poison on ur self and use healing signet. a distracting shot to either of those and u would lose ur way to heal and energy manage, thus making victory is mine useless(unlesss u got ppl in ur team that spam conditions) then also victory is mine is very dependant on the cyclone axe and apply poison. ur build seems more of a farm build than a pvp build.
u dont really need balance stance in pvp rather a dryders or whirling would do better since hammer warriors spam knockdowns. ur build just seems mostly for endurance build. through a long battle u would win but pvp is usually not a long battle (unless u got a damn runner)

qwe4rty · Dec 02, 2005, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hot Dead

Better hope you have a good monk, you have no healing skill, the only skill that will heal you a lot is heal sig.
switch it with one one of the stances

I hardly ever bring self healing. You don't really need it. Sure, if your on a team w/o a monk, and your fighting a team w/ a monk, chances are, your going to lose, even if you have a bit of self healing. Just focus completely on your fire power (unless of course, your healing falls into an attribute line you are already using E.G. Ether Feast if you are using inspiration and mana draining)

VGJustice · Dec 02, 2005, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Berry, I notice one problem with your build that makes it not very effective for PvP. I'll grant you that if you use Apply Poison, then get surrounded by a mob and use Cyclone Axe + "Victory is Mine!", then yeah, you're gonna get a huge chunk of health and energy. The trouble is, you will almost never encounter that condition in PvP. If the mass wall of melee characters is going to surround anyone, it'll be either an interuptor or a healer/protectionist. Your build is probably very effective for PvE, but I'd personally drop Tactics from just about any R/W for PvP now. Tactics doesn't help as much as Wilderness or Expertise. But, I noticed you took Balanced Stance and Desperation Blow. Does Balanced cancel out the ill side-effect of Desperation?

If I were using an axe, I'd personally take along a bunch of adrenal skills, and in that case, it's better to be Warrior primary.

[EDIT] A note on Seeking Blade: it does not activate very often at all. You need a guy using dodging stances, which get killed by Wild Blow, or you need a Warder. So, basicly, the only time that Gash would be effective on this build is when you're fighting a Warder. That's it. Anything else that let's them evade is just a stance, and that'll get knocked off right quick by Wild Blow.

BBoy_Manchild · Dec 02, 2005, 09:02 PM // 21:02

i never saw anything in berryracer's post about using that build in pvp